HW: actually, really RE: Off: Tull!!! but explicit HW at the end

[Jonathan Jarrett]

On Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 05:19:55PM -0400, Doug Pearson typed out:
> On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:54:14 +0100, Jonathan Jarrett
> <jjarrett at CHIARK.GREENEND.ORG.UK> wrote:

        <massive snip>

> >        I don't blame HW for it so much as I blame Voiceprint.
>
> Why would you blame Voiceprint?  Their only alternative would be to refuse
> to release whatever material is deemed "sub-standard" (which would probably
> be in violation of whatever agreement they have with Hawkwind/Dave, unless
> there are legal reasons to not release it, as I assume is the case with
> Weird 6, for instance), in which case Hawkwind fans (at least me!) would be
> blaming Voiceprint for NOT making the material available.  It's a lose-lose
> situation for them (which makes me feel sorry for Voiceprint, really;
> they've been very much damned-if-they-do, damned-if-they-don't on this
> list, while I think they've been doing an EXCELLENT job with not just
> Hawkwind, but many other great artists).  And who would be the one to make
> the judgement call of what's deemed "sub-standard"?  This exchange is
> certainly evidence that differences of opinion among Hawkwind fans are far
> too vast for any one person to make that decision ;^).

        Well, mostly I blame Voiceprint because I think they're a bunch of
cowboys, in that their releases show a minimum of care and effort only
undercut by Oz-IT, but on the other hand they get the stuff out
there. They are essentially a distributor so maybe that's why, but
incomplete tracklists, botched credits, substandard artwork, no
post-production, you can say all this about so many of their products, and
the whole mispressed _Spacebrock_ as bonus CD affair suggests to me that
they're doing half this stuff on a wing and a prayer. Of course you could
say half these things about EBS releases and add constant indexing errors,
but EBS stuff looked and sounded better and showed care so I didn't mind.

        I hear what you say though, and I realise half their problems are
at music source not music distribution end...

> >The stuff that HW has sold privately (like _Hawkwind 1997_)
> >has been much better quality.
>
> But that one IS a Voiceprint release!  (Catalog# HAWKVP 999)  It's just the
> only Hawk/Voiceprint release that *isn't* distributed (only manufactured)
> by Voiceprint.  And certainly 'Yule Ritual' and the recent 'Nottingham
> 1990' are superb sound quality (well, the Simon-less half of '1990' is
> superb sound quality, the Nottingham/Live Legends half is very, very good -
> way better than either Complete '79 or '82 IMO - but not quite superb).

        Yeah, it's the distribution I have the issues with really. _Yule
Ritual_ is good though the vocals are oddly high up in the mix; I can't
stand the artwork though, the credits are wrong and the photos mostly from
a different gig, several of Huw who's not on the disc, so on. Again
Voiceprint not the only offenders here (there's no photoes of Jerry for
example, wonder why) but _Hawkwind 1997_ is good quality but untinkered
with. _Complete '79_ and _Glastonbury 1990_ are surely as valid a target
as was _Yuri Gagarin_ and _In The Beginning_ for that scenario where
someone is interested enough in Hawkwind to buy a CD, finds it
unlistenable and never tries again. The band themselves shouldn't be
putting that stuff out, and Voiceprint should at least be cleaning it up
before burning it straight to disc. But I want to live in an ideal world
of course.

> Are you suggesting that something like 'Glastonbury 90' should be sold
> *only* by the band, and not be available in stores ("high street")?  That
> would A) make it more difficult for the fans (especially overseas) to
> obtain the release, and B) make a lot more work for Dave/Kris/whoever, that
> actually has to pack and post all the orders from fans (or they'd have to
> pay someone to do it ... and I have a feeling that Ian Anderson is much
> better equipped for this than Dave).  I personally would rather see (even
> though it's none of MY business!) Dave spending time playing guitar,
> writing songs, working on stage set ideas, or even just hanging out on the
> farm, than filling CD orders.  Also, removing the releases from normal
> distribution channels would mean that a whole lot fewer copies would be
> sold, which would presumably not be in the band's and label's best interest.

        I'm not sure that these things are advertising mainstream product
particularly well! No, I don't think they should be band-distributed, I'd
expect to see them in mail-order catalogues, that sort of stuff, I don't
think they should be considered to be high-street-able. I reckon if you're
going to put Collector on it anyway you might as well put it where the
Collectors are looking.

        In monetary terms what you say makes perfect sense, of course, as
long as the low quality doesn't kick back. I'm hanging on to an old-
fashioned ideal here I guess.

> >> if you want "perfection", go listen to ... one of
> >> those "live" albums where all the guitar parts were re-recorded by a
> >> session player in the studio.  Jeez!)
> >
> >        Weren't a fair few bits of _Space Ritual_ re-recorded in the
> >studio? :-)
>
> Possibly some (have we ever had firm evidence on this, besides good guesses
> by people with good ears?  It's certainly possible, although I also think
> it's possible that there are some areas where two guitar parts can be heard
> because an edit is being cross-faded, so the guitar from part 1 can be
> heard fading out while the guitar from part 2 is fading in) ... but
> certainly nothing like live albums by Thin Lizzy (according to producer
> Tony Visconti, all of the lead vocals & bass, and most of the guitars, are
> studio overdubs), Kiss (on which Ace's guitar parts are played by a session
> musician), the Stones, etc.  And 'Space Ritual II' (which would presumably
> have NOT been re-recorded/overdubbed/augmented) sounds pretty good to these
> (admittedly tin) ears ... ;^)

        I don't know, it was Larry Boyd that started that hare. I don't
think it was serious stuff like _Live and Dangerous_ of course; I seem to
remember him mentioning Calvert's poetry was mostly rerecorded (or maybe
just in `Seven By Seven'?) and Dave's guitar in *I think* `Down Through
The Night'. Hold on. <awakens Pine> Ah yes, I don't quite remember
correctly. The post I was thinking of went like this...

On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 DASLUD at AOL.COM wrote:
> Subject: Re: HW: Finest Moments
>
> In a message dated 2/6/01 1:27:25 PM, Chuckrecs at AOL.COM writes:
>
> <<
> Live "Space is Deep" from Space Ritual...just after the guitar-and-drums jam
> has finished and before the Only Dreaming "whewwwwwwwww" part, Brock is just
> picking away mellowly and suddenly there's an extra layer of "wah" laid on
> top...really smooth. Yeah?
>
>  >>
> =========
> if you are suggesting a gtr. overdub on top of the live recording...um...
> i am reminded of the way 'born to go' is followed by 'down through the
> night'; there are several moments between the two on the audience tape, but
> on the lp, one fades out whilst the next fades up, creating two guitars,
> briefly.
> that brock's vocals on 'down through the night' were redone/overdubbed are
> another story.

        Now what Chuck was talking about is well-known now to be Del
running Dave's guitar through the VCS, but what Larry was saying is a bit
different. So yeah, what do I know.

> Sorry if I'm being argumentive (not my intent!  I enjoy the discussion -
> thanks, Jon!) ... it's just that when I consider the alternatives, I don't
> see anything that's more workable than the way the Collector Series is
> already distributed/marketed, since selling them direct instead of through
> stores would be a lose-lose-lose situation (fans can't get 'em - band has
> to do more work to sell 'em - label doesn't sell as many copies).

        I think, as I say, there's a halfway through mailorder outlets
which would be more appropriate given how ropey some of the product
is--but since some of it's fine, you then sort of have to stock the whole
series high-street or none at all...

        I think basically my stance is, "It's a pity Hawkwind are issuing
records which sound so awful, especially given how loyally we all harangue
Dave Anderson for doing it too." But they seem to have stopped doing it
now? Maybe?

> P.S. If anyone's listening - Collector Series spring '84 or
> Stonehenge '84 ... PLEASE!!!

        Can I add a resounding "Hell yeah" to that? Yours,
                                                           Jon

ObCD: Monster Magnet - _Dopes To Infinity_
--
        Jonathan Jarrett                Birkbeck College, London
                 jjarrett at chiark.greenend.org.uk
        --------------------------------------------------------
  "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away." (Tom Waits)