(OFF) Re: WOTEOT master tapes (was Re: Jamun & Spacerocktrading intro)

Thu Mar 10 10:22:01 EST 2011

Having just played both the Dojo and Griffin releases, I can confirm the 
Dojo has the correct full-length version of Kings Of Speed, while the 
Griffin has the shortened single version.

One other difference is The Wizard Blew His Horn, which has the start faded 
in on the Dojo version, possibly to remove some unwanted noise, whilst the 
Griffin has the full version.

Listening to both discs alternately, the sonic difference is considerable, 
even on just the opening bars of Assault and Battery.  The Dojo has a more 
mid-range presence, the mellotron strings are more pronounced and forward. 
Switching to the Griffin, the strings are further back in the mix while the 
bass guitar is deeper, almost artifically so. Stereo seperation is noticably 
better. The hi-hats are much clearer on the Griffin and have more top-end 
extension than the Dojo release.

For fun I then thought I'd dig out my first-press UK vinyl copy.  Listening 
to Opa-Loka, the Dojo sounds harsh and compressed compared to the vinyl and 
Griffin CD.  In fact the last two were surprisingly close, so much so that 
at times I forgot which one I was listening to. Overall, the vinyl has a 
darker sound, the Griffin CD has more top-end extension and detail.

So there you go.  If and when Atomhenge release ther version of it, I look 
forward to comparing it, but for now, looks like the Griffin has the edge.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "lucidsound" <lucidsound at IC24.NET>
To: <BOC-L at LISTSERV.ISPNETINC.NET>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: (OFF) Re: WOTEOT master tapes (was Re: Jamun & Spacerocktrading 
intro)

> The album version has a longer guitar solo in the middle.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "mike c" <insect.brain at GMAIL.COM>
> To: <BOC-L at LISTSERV.ISPNETINC.NET>
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: (OFF) Re: WOTEOT master tapes (was Re: Jamun & 
> Spacerocktrading intro)
>
>
>> One more thing, apologies-
>> While nothing HW has ever been "bad" to me, I tend to like the
>> "message" of "KOS" better than the tune, Moorcock's version excepted,
>> and I confess to NEVER really knowing the difference between "single
>> version" and "album version". I always thought the song doesn't really
>> fit the record muscially.
>> so
>> I'm interested should anybody set me straight about that......
>>
>> On 3/10/11, Town Idiot <insect.brain at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Oh are you saying the USA version has things altered so that it can
>>> have a SHORTER KOS??
>>> If that means I've gained elsewhere I am GREAT with that, but is it
>>> that simple??
>>>
>>> On 3/10/11, Town Idiot <insect.brain at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Oh God, Oh God, only a quater cup of coffee : (
>>>>
>>>> On 3/10/11, Steve Freight <stevefreight at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Now this quote is interesting
>>>>>
>>>>> *When they arrived I was delighted to see that they also included the 
>>>>> A
>>>>> and
>>>>> B side of the single as well as Dave�s hand-written notes from 1975
>>>>> about
>>>>> track order and fades.
>>>>
>>>> Yes that note looks rather sweet to have with the tapes!!  thanks for
>>>> drawing me to your site!!
>>>>
>>>>> *If so then why was the version of Motorhead the same as the UK CD 
>>>>> with
>>>>> the
>>>>> "scratch" in evidence.
>>>>
>>>> Treading carefully here, I'm not as keen as I used to be-
>>>> I have played the Griffin lately, studying the Motorhead version
>>>> compared to the actual Atco single, and while I always think I hear a
>>>> "bump noise". NOT a scratch, I would say it is NOT the same as the
>>>> Dojo version, and it would seem Rob tells truth here!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I also understood the DOJO version came out first as this was mastered
>>>>> from
>>>>> vinyl (I know whose copy of the album was used (and the single)) at
>>>>> Doug's
>>>>> request as at the time the mater tapes were not available*. *If it had
>>>>> been
>>>>> released after the Griffin version I would not have bought it.
>>>>
>>>> I would have thought Douglas could reach up on the shelf and grab a
>>>> test-prsssing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> This does not though answer why the Griffin version has the single
>>>>> version
>>>>> of Kings Of Speed instead of the album version. As I've mentioned 
>>>>> before
>>>>> the
>>>>> timings of some of the other songs differ to make up the album time as
>>>>> both
>>>>> versions are the same length. Think the intro on Dojo version of Magnu
>>>>> is
>>>>> longer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> AH!! My favorite part, and also the where we enter "taboo-land" "for
>>>> the sake of discussion"
>>>>
>>>> YES there are SEVERAL timing differences, and I am still trying to
>>>> figure that one out!! ALL other countries seem to be as UK, except
>>>> Atco
>>>>
>>>> THIS brings back what I was saying about the Rock Fever versions-  the
>>>> guy on the UK HW forum was saying the version of KOS was NOT the
>>>> single version like the Grifffin, BUT THE FULL ORIGINAL
>>>> Thus leaving that person to further claim that those versions seems to
>>>> have already been made from another set of masters.
>>>>
>>>> I am only repeating "the gossip", NOT claiming any truth in what I
>>>> repeated, nor promoting bootlegs, but there is a digipak, so is there
>>>> 3 of those??
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>> *
>>>>> *
>>>>> On 10 March 2011 00:39, mike coleman <insect.brain at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Poor Rob
>>>>>> He's just got tapes !! :) (and a yellowing piece of paper)
>>>>>> WILFRIED!!!
>>>>>> I DEMAND MY SHEET!!!!
>>>>>> NOW!!!!!~!~!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/9/11, mike coleman <insect.brain at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> > and taking THAT ball and running, THAT could explain why my USA
>>>>>> > test-pressing is on PRESSWELL records, and sounds SUPERIOR and
>>>>>> > different than the Atco pressings.
>>>>>> > Maybe I've GOT the master?? (but I wonder why Motorhead was done by 
>>>>>> > a
>>>>>> > diff company?)
>>>>>> > hehehe
>>>>>> > Never compared to the Griffin CD.
>>>>>> > I can also speculate aloud why the Canadian LP press, in 
>>>>>> > particular,
>>>>>> > alos sounds (to me) unique, with a noiticeable flatish drum-sound. 
>>>>>> > I
>>>>>> > suppose that is due to the copy process Lucidsound pointed out.
>>>>>> > It figures (to me), that right after Lucidsound posted, that entire
>>>>>> > thread "vanished" off my computer, this driving me insane and even 
>>>>>> > a
>>>>>> > little nervous.
>>>>>> > hmmm
>>>>>> > Anyway, thanks for info guys
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On 3/9/11, Steve Youles <youless at cox.net> wrote:
>>>>>> >> This doesn't definitely answer Lucidsound's questions, but what 
>>>>>> >> Rob
>>>>>> >> Griffin
>>>>>> >> (owner of Griffin Records) had to say about it is on this page:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> http://www.starfarer.net/griffin1.html
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> It's located about a third of the way down the page.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> BTW I can't prove this, but I'm sure I saw somewhere some
>>>>>> >> information
>>>>>> >> concerning ATCO's release of WOTEOT which would explain why that
>>>>>> >> album
>>>>>> >> has never been part of the EMI reissues of 70's Hawkwind albums.
>>>>>> >> What
>>>>>> >> I
>>>>>> >> think I read is that Hawkwind's original UA contract was for 5
>>>>>> >> albums,
>>>>>> >> and
>>>>>> >> it
>>>>>> >> thus expired with the release of Hall Of The Mountain Grill.
>>>>>> >> However,
>>>>>> >> Hawkwind were separately contracted to ATCO in the USA, and that
>>>>>> contract
>>>>>> >> was still running when they came to do WOTEOT - and in fact was 
>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>> >> only
>>>>>> >> record contract that Hawkwind had at the time.  So, the album was
>>>>>> >> actually
>>>>>> >> recorded for ATCO, and presumably this means the master tapes were
>>>>>> ATCO's
>>>>>> >> property - so they may not be a "copy" at all.  And then, once the
>>>>>> >> album
>>>>>> >> was
>>>>>> >> recorded, ATCO licenced it back to EMI for UK (maybe European)
>>>>>> >> release
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> >> a
>>>>>> >> short-term licencing deal.  Which has long since expired, and 
>>>>>> >> hence
>>>>>> >> EMI
>>>>>> >> has
>>>>>> >> never had the rights to reissue the album.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Good theory, yeah, but I have no evidence to back it up,
>>>>>> >> unfortunately.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Cheers
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Steve
>>>>>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> >> On Wed, 9 Mar 2011 17:20:25 -0000, lucidsound 
>>>>>> >> <lucidsound at IC24.NET>
>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>>The Griffin release is quite likely to be sourced from the ATCO
>>>>>> >>> master
>>>>>> >>>tapes...however that is not all clear cut.  For example, the ATCO
>>>>>> >>> tapes
>>>>>> >>> are
>>>>>> >>>not THE Warrior master tapes, they are a copy.  A copy of what? 
>>>>>> >>>The
>>>>>> >>>equalised tape used to master the vinyl? The original stereo 
>>>>>> >>>master?
>>>>>> >>> A
>>>>>> >>> third
>>>>>> >>>generation copy?
>>>>>> >>>Secondly, it could be that the ATCO tape was digitised using a
>>>>>> >>> standard
>>>>>> >>>issue DAT, as was quite common for the time and which would impart 
>>>>>> >>>a
>>>>>> >>>not-inconsiderable reduction in quality. And was the release
>>>>>> >>> properly
>>>>>> >>>mastered or just copied straight to CD? All of these factors could
>>>>>> >>> have
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> >>>bearing on why the Griffin release does not have the transparency 
>>>>>> >>>of
>>>>>> >>> sound
>>>>>> >>>that might be expected.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> View Steve's Photos of Hawkwind Porcupine Tree and Isle of Wight
>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/venthawktree
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> 